Intel and AMD are unlikely allies in new x86 ecosystem advisory group – "we'll remain fierce competitors"
Cats and dogs, living together!
In a rare public-facing display of cooperation between two of the industry's fiercest rivals, Intel and AMD jointly announced the formation of a new x86 advisory group to ensure a unified x86 instruction set architecture (ISA) moving forward, an important consideration given both the potential addition of new features and the various x86 simplification efforts already underway.
The companies announced the new x86 ecosystem advisory group at the 2024 OCP Summit. It already has several notable industry software and hardware stalwarts as participants, including Google, Broadcom, Dell, HP, Lenovo, Microsoft, Meta, Oracle, and Red Hat, with more to come in the future.
The 46-year-old x86 is the most prevalent ISA used for general computing for PCs and data centers, and Intel and AMD are the only two primary x86 architecture licensees that build new processors in high volumes, creating a duopoly. Cooperation between the two, with the input of a bevy of customers and end users, will help to build a more unified approach that reduces or even eliminates custom ISA implementations that can be problematic for the duopoly's hardware and software customers. That's becoming even more important as the x86 ecosystem faces intense pressure from Arm in both the consumer and data center markets, not to mention the continuing rise of RISC-V.
The new group intends to standardize at least some of the new additions and alterations to the x86 ISA, which includes several simplification efforts already underway. The alterations and areas of collaboration aren't yet defined, but there are plenty of clear candidates that could be up for discussion.
For instance, AMD has its Supervisor Entry Extensions, which are designed to clear up some of the older cruft in the ISA, while Intel has its Flexible Return and Event Delivery (FRED) code, which has similar goals. Intel has even begun work on X86S, a simplified 64-bit mode-only implementation designed to strip out even more of the legacy cruft.
While cleaning up is an obvious area of potential collaboration, the x86 ISA is also constantly moving forward with new additions, and here, alignment between Intel and AMD could become even more important. For instance, Intel has recently introduced AMX, a matrix math extension that dramatically boosts performance in AI inference workloads, and AVX10. Both would benefit from more uniform implementations among the vendors. However, there will certainly be even newer and as-yet-unforeseen additions, particularly regarding various extensions that support AI operations.
Big day! @Intel & @AMD launched an x86 advisory group to drive the customization, compatibility, and scalability customers need to evolve and keep pace with increasing compute workloads.We've always championed ecosystem engagement, and we’re proud to work with @LisaSu and AMD… pic.twitter.com/O1TSoxBddgOctober 15, 2024
Before the announcement, we spoke with AMD's Forrest Norrod (EVP and GM of its Data Center Solutions BU), and Intel's Justin Hotard (EVP and GM of the Data Center and AI Group).
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"AMD and Intel are excited to come together in this," said Norrod, "and we think it's one of the most significant shifts in the x86 architecture in decades. As Justin said, x86 is the de facto standard. It's a strong ecosystem, but it's one that Intel and AMD have co-developed in a way, but at arm's length. And that has caused some inefficiencies and some drift in portions of the ISA over time."
"When we step back and look at it, we see that it is a de facto open ecosystem. Open ecosystems benefit from having consortiums with stakeholders, all with a voice in driving the ecosystem forward," said Norrod.
However, we shouldn't expect AMD and Intel to back off their competitive instincts. "We're going to remain fierce competitors. You know, Justin and I are friends first, but when we show up to work each day, we are fiercely trying to compete on behalf of our companies and ensure that our customers have compelling choices from each one of our companies. But we can compete even while we're driving industry standards together, and there's a rich history of Intel and AMD doing that," said Norrod.
"I think the other question you might ask is, why now? It's because we're seeing a real shift in the demand for compute. We're at an inflection point. We think it's the right time to enable this new, consistent architecture as a source of innovation for our ecosystem," Hotard added.
"We're looking at new innovations in the architecture, and going forward, we implement them in standard ways, and we think that provides easier adoption for the entire ecosystem, whether they're hardware vendors or software developers," said Hotard. "There have been many different feature requests that we've had for x86; some have been adopted by one of us, and some have been adopted by neither of us. I think the agreement that we will have a consistent approach is foundational, so we have good predictability."
Better collaboration and standardization will also benefit security-related features. Intel and AMD already collaborate on multiple axes behind the scenes, and standards such as PCIe, ACPI, and USB, among others, result from intense collaborative efforts across the industry. Naturally, coming to some collaborative decisions about the future of x86 could become contentious between the two rivals, but Norrod cites the presence of other companies and customers in the group as a guiding force that will help keep the companies headed in the right direction.
Via Technologies is also another x86 licensee, but the company's status in the group is unknown for now. Intel purchased much of the company's assets, though Via does retain the right to make x86 processors. I asked Intel and AMD about the matter. Representatives said Via is free to join the group, but they will also follow up with more details.
AMD and Intel intend to chart a new course together for x86 to ensure compatibility and consistency. However, given the long design cycles for modern processors, we shouldn't expect to see the impact of the new x86 advisory group for at least a year, if not longer. For now, neither company is willing to commit to specifics, but we're sure that will change in the coming months.
Paul Alcorn is the Managing Editor: News and Emerging Tech for Tom's Hardware US. He also writes news and reviews on CPUs, storage, and enterprise hardware.
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bit_user It's a little hard to see what's in this for Intel, but my best guess is that they caught flak from big customers for reversing course on AVX-512 and doing AVX10.Reply
Also, if they want to stave off the assault from ARM and RISC-V, then there's an incentive for getting these ISA extensions deployed and utilized in the field, on a more aggressive time table. Having a situation where AMD drags its feet on a certain ISA extension could mean that software developers are less likely to utilize it, and that ultimately hurts Intel and undermines the point of even having the extension.
VIA is another licensee and has been engaged with Zhaoxin to design and build new x86 CPUs. Given the potential size of the Chinese market, I think they might qualify as high-volume.The article said:Intel and AMD are the only two primary x86 architecture licensees that build new processors in high volumes, creating a duopoly.
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-with-x86-license-releases-surprisingly-modern-new-chips-made-with-a-mystery-process-node-xhaoxin-kx-7000-cpu-launches-with-eight-cores-37ghz-clocks-pcie-40-and-ddr5-memory-support -
Kamen Rider Blade Maybe we can get Intel to allow AMD in on the ATX Spec.Reply
There are a few things I want to modify as well.
First, we need to get rid of 12VHPWR & 12v-2x6 and kill it.
Start over from scratch to make a BETTER/SAFER High Wattage Plug.
The current plug is just badly architected with not enough safety margin from the outset.
Also, the Backside mounted MoBo Connectors are dumb.
We need to nip that in the bud.
We need "Right-Angle Receptacles & Plugs to become the standard.
We also need to bring back all our PCIe Rear Add-In slots.
M.2 Connectors can be adapted to PCIe slots, not the other way around.
Don't allow MoBo makers to force M.2 Connectors by default on the MoBo to eat away our PCIe slots. -
NinoPino
That symbol is of Chinese origin.Findecanor said:Judging by the illustration, the group would be based in South Korea? -
ekio Amd and Intel KNOW x86 is a dead technology that is kept alive through bandaids and they know their value is bound to keeping it alive as long as they can.Reply
The healthy way of moving on would be to embrace arm or risc-v with advanced x86 to modern isa software translators for the transition phase, but that would mean the end of the duopole… -
Kamen Rider Blade
x86 is 4 Life! & 4 EVAR!ekio said:Amd and Intel KNOW x86 is a dead technology that is kept alive through bandaids and they know their value is bound to keeping it alive as sling as they can.
The healthy way of moving on would be to embrace arm or risc-v with advanced x86 to modern isa software translators, but that would mean the end of the duopole…
Juqm94sUV_E
But in all seriousness:
The ARM vs x86 debate largely doesn't matter. It's outdated.
Conclusion: Implementation Matters, not ISA
Jim Keller agrees that the ISA doesn't really matter either
yTMRGERZrQE -
Kamen Rider Blade
What we need is for nVIDIA & Qualcomm to be allowed to buy x86 Licenses and join the x86 Family of CPU makers.ekio said:Amd and Intel KNOW x86 is a dead technology that is kept alive through bandaids and they know their value is bound to keeping it alive as long as they can.
The healthy way of moving on would be to embrace arm or risc-v with advanced x86 to modern isa software translators for the transition phase, but that would mean the end of the duopole… -
bit_user
I have a lot of respect for most of what they publish, but the author clearly didn't do his research, as he wasn't even aware of APX.Kamen Rider Blade said:But in all seriousness:
The ARM vs x86 debate largely doesn't matter. It's outdated.
I think he's been out of the game, for too long. Either that, or he felt it would be uncouth to undercut his former employers (AMD and Intel), if he started badmouthing their ISA. But, when time came for him to integrate CPU cores into Tenstorrent's products, did he try to license IP from AMD or Intel? No. He first went to ARM, and then decided RISC-V was better for the flexibility it gave him.Kamen Rider Blade said:Jim Keller agrees that the ISA doesn't really matter either
At this point, I'm sure they wouldn't even bother if they could.Kamen Rider Blade said:What we need is for nVIDIA & Qualcomm to be allowed to buy x86 Licenses and join the x86 Family of CPU makers.